I'm considering taking up flying as a hobby. It's something I've been wanting to do
since I was a kid. The ultimate goal is to learn how to fly lear jets or should I say private
light jets. What flight training classes would I have to take and how many hrs would I
have to perform. I can pretty much fly as many times a week as necessary to get the
training my job schedule is highly flexible. I have noticed that most courses run from 5
to 7 k. To get a private pilots license. But what would it take to have the licensing to fly
a lear. And can those courses be taken right after getting my PPL. I saw where I could
get a PPL for 8,000 and get instrument training for another 6,000. Is there another
course needed to fly a lear and can all the classes be taken concurrently.

> I'm considering taking up flying as a hobby. It's something I've been
> wanting to do
> since I was a kid. The ultimate goal is to learn how to fly lear jets or
> should I say private
> light jets. What flight training classes would I have to take and how many
> hrs would I
> have to perform. I can pretty much fly as many times a week as necessary
> to get the
> training my job schedule is highly flexible. I have noticed that most
> courses run from 5
> to 7 k. To get a private pilots license. But what would it take to have
> the licensing to fly
> a lear. And can those courses be taken right after getting my PPL. I saw
> where I could
> get a PPL for 8,000 and get instrument training for another 6,000. Is
> there another
> course needed to fly a lear and can all the classes be taken concurrently.

As long as you've got the time and the aptitude, all it takes is money,
Steve. Lots and lots of money.

Getting type-rated in a Lear won't be cheap. I have no idea how much -- but
I'll bet a bunch of people here know!

Good luck!
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

"Steve" wrote:

> ...But what would it take to have the licensing to fly
> a lear.

You will need an Airplane, Multi Engine Land rating and type rating for
almost any jet you want to fly. Both require instruction, written tests and
check rides.

> And can those courses be taken right after getting my PPL.

Yes. In fact, you could do it all at the same time, but it would most likely
be impractical.

--
Dan
C-172RG at BFM

On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 06:36:01 GMT, "Steve" > wrote in
>::

>I'm considering taking up flying as a hobby.

Actually, flying is a bit more than a hobby like Chess or wood
working, as an airman commands the public trust over those whom he
flies and whom he carries as passengers; flying is a life and death
matter after all.

>It's something I've been wanting to do since I was a kid. The ultimate goal is to learn
>how to fly lear jets or should I say private light jets.

Whose Lear jets are you planning to fly, you're own? Or are you
considering commercial operations for your hobby? You should be aware
they require two flight crew as well as a type rating and recurrent
training. Some light jets only require one pilot.

>What flight training classes would I have to take and how many hrs would I
>have to perform.

Flying jet aircraft is probably going to require a minimum of 500
hours of flight time and an instrument rating before an insurance
company will consider you.

>I can pretty much fly as many times a week as necessary to get the
>training my job schedule is highly flexible.

A minimum of two 1-hour lessons a week is required for good progress
in flight training, in my opinion. There are cram courses that
guarantee you a certificate in only a matter of days, but I have no
experience with them, and personally wouldn't recommend them.

>I have noticed that most courses run from 5
>to 7 k. To get a private pilots license. But what would it take to have the licensing to fly
>a lear.

It depends. Do you plan to do that commercially or privately? You
might want to peruse the FAA licensing regulations:
http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?sid=bab16c54e4e8f339f0e0e27a0ba63144&c=ecfr&tpl=/ecfrbrowse/Title14/14cfrv2_02.tpl

>And can those courses be taken right after getting my PPL.

While it is not contrary to Federal Aviation Regulations to receive
that training concurrently with your Private Pilot training, it would
require significant time and effort.

>I saw where I could
>get a PPL for 8,000 and get instrument training for another 6,000. Is there another
>course needed to fly a lear and can all the classes be taken concurrently.

Why are you in such a hurry?

Well, once you get your PPL and IR, you just move on to the
multi-engine by renting a Piper Seneca and working your way up to the
LJ, or go directly to the LJ. I hear they are not all that hard to
fly. I have no idea what the rental cost would be, but fuel alone for
those babies costs a mint. You'll probably have to rent from a flight
school, and they charge more than your local FBO who might have a twin
available for training.

As others have said, just a matter of time and money. I might also add
aptitude, since some people turn out to have no ability to fly.

If you can fly when ever you want, also meaning that you can pay what ever
it takes, you could realistically knock out your PPL and your Instrument
rating in 6-8 months. I'm sure others will say it can be done faster and
they'd be correct, but starting with 0 time you need to give yourself enough
time to actually learn and build experience. Multi-engine can be done in a
long weekend for under $1500. From there you can go to one of the
specialized type rating schools for the Lear work, however they may require
a minimum number of hours before you qualify to enroll.

My question would be who's Lear will you fly? With minimal hours in type,
you won't be able to rent one. If you buy your own, you will have problems
finding insurance. Best case scenario... you are independently very wealthy
and you can just buy a Lear and not worry about insurance. And you can also
afford the BEST training and you'll make recurrent training your top
priority.

Be careful. Do some self examination and understand your motivation. It can
be done, but learn how to do it safely and correctly. Do not let your need
for speed surpass your capabilities.

Thurman Munson, the Yankee catcher, had 516 hours TOTAL flight time, 33
total hours in Citations, and had owned 4 different airplanes during the 18
months that he was a pilot. Too much money. Too much airplane. Too much
speed. Too little experience. Touch and goes in a jet. The last one he
didn't use his checklist. First forgot to lower his gear, then he forgot to
lower his flaps. Way behind the power curve, too slow on final with the
flaps up, they sank into the trees. 516 hours TT 18 months more money
than experience.

Please be careful.

Jim

I"m not sure if you are saying "Lear Jet" because that's the jet that
comes to mind or if you like the Lear better than other jets. However,
there are several schools out there that have programs that get you
some jet time. All ATP is one example. For $43,994.50 you go all the
way from where you are today to having some jet time. However, if you
plan to earn back your money flying jets, it could take quite some
time. You'll likely spend the first 10 years or so of your professional
life teaching in single engine trainers before you have enough hours to
get hired flying jets.

-Robert

Steve wrote:
> I'm considering taking up flying as a hobby. It's something I've been wanting to do
> since I was a kid. The ultimate goal is to learn how to fly lear jets or should I say private
> light jets. What flight training classes would I have to take and how many hrs would I
> have to perform. I can pretty much fly as many times a week as necessary to get the
> training my job schedule is highly flexible. I have noticed that most courses run from 5
> to 7 k. To get a private pilots license. But what would it take to have the licensing to fly
> a lear. And can those courses be taken right after getting my PPL. I saw where I could
> get a PPL for 8,000 and get instrument training for another 6,000. Is there another
> course needed to fly a lear and can all the classes be taken concurrently.

How flexible is that schedule? You could go to an ab-initio school that
feeds people into the regional airlines in 12-18 months and get all the
ratings, and if you really want, you could get a job with a regional
and get line-qualified as a copilot (FO) in another year maybe, and
quit. They'll probably want you to pay for your training after that,
but if you've got Learjet kind of money that won't be a problem, and
the insurance companies will take you real seriously.

If you don't have quite that much time, you could pay to get a type
rating at FlightSafety and look for work flying right seat for check
couriers, that sort of thing, that don't require such a permanent
commitment, though it's still not going to be a cakewalk. You'll build
hours and get paid almost as much as you might make as an assistant
manager at a hot dog stand.

Also, you might want to consider whether you really need a turbojet
airplane... A Lancair Columbia will cruise over 200kts which makes
500-mile trips go plenty fast, and will cost you a hell of a lot less
in fuel and maintenance, and you can order one new from the factory for
half of what you'd pay for a clapped-out jet, and you can get insured
in one even as a VFR student if you're willing to pay out the nose. Of
course, if you're talking about 1000 mile trips in real weather,
nothing beats a jet, but even the brand-new very-light jets don't all
live up to that, especially when you put a couple butts in the seats.

-cwk.

Just for comparison:

I was talking to a friend of mine who is a corporate pilot. I spend $200 to
fill the tanks in my Cherokee 140. His company spends $7,000 to fill the
tanks in his Hawker.

"Steve" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> I'm considering taking up flying as a hobby. It's something I've been
wanting to do
> since I was a kid. The ultimate goal is to learn how to fly lear jets or
should I say private
> light jets. What flight training classes would I have to take and how many
hrs would I
> have to perform. I can pretty much fly as many times a week as necessary
to get the
> training my job schedule is highly flexible. I have noticed that most
courses run from 5
> to 7 k. To get a private pilots license. But what would it take to have
the licensing to fly
> a lear. And can those courses be taken right after getting my PPL. I saw
where I could
> get a PPL for 8,000 and get instrument training for another 6,000. Is
there another
> course needed to fly a lear and can all the classes be taken concurrently.
>

"Steve Foley" > wrote in message
news:CkWXe.8108$LV5.2992@trndny02...
> Just for comparison:
>
> I was talking to a friend of mine who is a corporate pilot. I spend $200
> to
> fill the tanks in my Cherokee 140. His company spends $7,000 to fill the
> tanks in his Hawker.

The difference is that the $200 is your money.

Mike
MU-2

Some Cessna Citation models are certificated for single-pilot operation,
but all Lears require two pilots. I had about 4000 hours of flight
experience (and an airline transport pilot certificate) when I got my Lear
type rating and it cost $9000...in 1977. I suspect that the cost might be a
tad higher in today's dollars.

I applaud your goals and determination. Learn to fly as soon as possible,
but realize that unless you are Richard Branson or Bill Gates, it will be
years before you have the experience to venture into jets.

Bob Gardner

"Steve" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> I'm considering taking up flying as a hobby. It's something I've been
> wanting to do
> since I was a kid. The ultimate goal is to learn how to fly lear jets or
> should I say private
> light jets. What flight training classes would I have to take and how many
> hrs would I
> have to perform. I can pretty much fly as many times a week as necessary
> to get the
> training my job schedule is highly flexible. I have noticed that most
> courses run from 5
> to 7 k. To get a private pilots license. But what would it take to have
> the licensing to fly
> a lear. And can those courses be taken right after getting my PPL. I saw
> where I could
> get a PPL for 8,000 and get instrument training for another 6,000. Is
> there another
> course needed to fly a lear and can all the classes be taken concurrently.
>

> The difference is that the $200 is your money.

And the $200 in the Cherokee will get you and 2 or 3 others a few
hundred miles. The $7,000 in the hawker will get you a a 1/2 dozen
friends several thousand miles. I wonder how the actual $ per
person-mile works out between the two.

-Robert

On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 08:15:53 -0500, "Dan Luke"
> wrote:

>
>"Steve" wrote:
>
>> ...But what would it take to have the licensing to fly
>> a lear.
>
>You will need an Airplane, Multi Engine Land rating and type rating for
>almost any jet you want to fly. Both require instruction, written tests and
>check rides.
>
>> And can those courses be taken right after getting my PPL.
>
>Yes. In fact, you could do it all at the same time, but it would most likely
>be impractical.


Thanks for your input Dan. Why would you consider it impratical?

On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 13:31:21 GMT, Larry Dighera >
wrote:

>On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 06:36:01 GMT, "Steve" > wrote in
>::
>
>>I'm considering taking up flying as a hobby.
>
>Actually, flying is a bit more than a hobby like Chess or wood
>working, as an airman commands the public trust over those whom he
>flies and whom he carries as passengers; flying is a life and death
>matter after all.
>
>>It's something I've been wanting to do since I was a kid. The ultimate goal is to learn
>>how to fly lear jets or should I say private light jets.
>
>Whose Lear jets are you planning to fly, you're own? Or are you
>considering commercial operations for your hobby? You should be aware
>they require two flight crew as well as a type rating and recurrent
>training. Some light jets only require one pilot.

Eventually once all certificates are acquired yes I do plan to fly my
own. I'm not really wanting to be involved with working for anyone.
Mostly just to visit folks and attend events in other cities and
states and the occassional airplane only access fishing trip. Maybe a
flight over the backwoods of Alaska stuff like that.

>
>>What flight training classes would I have to take and how many hrs would I
>>have to perform.
>
>Flying jet aircraft is probably going to require a minimum of 500
>hours of flight time and an instrument rating before an insurance
>company will consider you.
>
>>I can pretty much fly as many times a week as necessary to get the
>>training my job schedule is highly flexible.
>
>A minimum of two 1-hour lessons a week is required for good progress
>in flight training, in my opinion. There are cram courses that
>guarantee you a certificate in only a matter of days, but I have no
>experience with them, and personally wouldn't recommend them.
Yea, I wouldn't do that I have an ongoing interest in living a long
life

>
>>I have noticed that most courses run from 5
>>to 7 k. To get a private pilots license. But what would it take to have the licensing to fly
>>a lear.
>
>It depends. Do you plan to do that commercially or privately? You
>might want to peruse the FAA licensing regulations:
>http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?sid=bab16c54e4e8f339f0e0e27a0ba63144&c=ecfr&tpl=/ecfrbrowse/Title14/14cfrv2_02.tpl
>
>>And can those courses be taken right after getting my PPL.
>
>While it is not contrary to Federal Aviation Regulations to receive
>that training concurrently with your Private Pilot training, it would
>require significant time and effort.
>
>>I saw where I could
>>get a PPL for 8,000 and get instrument training for another 6,000. Is there another
>>course needed to fly a lear and can all the classes be taken concurrently.
>
>Why are you in such a hurry?
>
>
Not really in a hurry. Maybe the question didn't come out right or I
don't understand the literature I'm reading from these flight school
ads I'm reading.

Example I read an ad that said I could get Mutilple Engine rating for
10k. Does that mean they take from 0 to PPL to Instruments to Multiple
engine for 10k or what.

On 20 Sep 2005 06:33:22 -0700, "Paul kgyy" >
wrote:

>Well, once you get your PPL and IR, you just move on to the
>multi-engine by renting a Piper Seneca and working your way up to the
>LJ, or go directly to the LJ. I hear they are not all that hard to
>fly. I have no idea what the rental cost would be, but fuel alone for
>those babies costs a mint. You'll probably have to rent from a flight
>school, and they charge more than your local FBO who might have a twin
>available for training.
>
>As others have said, just a matter of time and money. I might also add
>aptitude, since some people turn out to have no ability to fly.


LOL well hopefully I won't have an aptitude problem. Cause that would
be a expensive way to find out.

>>
>>Whose Lear jets are you planning to fly, you're own? Or are you
>>considering commercial operations for your hobby? You should be aware
>>they require two flight crew as well as a type rating and recurrent
>>training. Some light jets only require one pilot.
>
> Eventually once all certificates are acquired yes I do plan to fly my
> own. I'm not really wanting to be involved with working for anyone.
> Mostly just to visit folks and attend events in other cities and
> states and the occassional airplane only access fishing trip. Maybe a
> flight over the backwoods of Alaska stuff like that.
>
Of course you didn't mean it, but you did cause me to conjur up the
apparition of a Lear-60 on floats.
In all honesty, my thoughts are that you should before anything
else, just go get your PP-ASEL. You need to start there in case, so go do
that -- first. Forget all the other stuff until then.

On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 10:03:14 -0500, "Jim Burns"
> wrote:

>If you can fly when ever you want, also meaning that you can pay what ever
>it takes, you could realistically knock out your PPL and your Instrument
>rating in 6-8 months. I'm sure others will say it can be done faster and
>they'd be correct, but starting with 0 time you need to give yourself enough
>time to actually learn and build experience. Multi-engine can be done in a
>long weekend for under $1500. From there you can go to one of the
>specialized type rating schools for the Lear work, however they may require
>a minimum number of hours before you qualify to enroll.

Point taken, But when you talk about specialized type rating schools
how do you go about finding out where they are and what their
requirements are I couldn't find them that's why i'm posting here. The
only thing I saw was for the buying a new lear or cessna citation.
However 3 million for a plane is not quite in the budget. Or can you
take these classes from these companies without actually flying home
in a new plane.



>
>My question would be who's Lear will you fly? With minimal hours in type,
>you won't be able to rent one. If you buy your own, you will have problems
>finding insurance. Best case scenario... you are independently very wealthy
>and you can just buy a Lear and not worry about insurance. And you can also
>afford the BEST training and you'll make recurrent training your top
>priority.

In researching this weekend I found used light jets to be priced from
100k on up. Although affordable I would be concerned about maintenance
and other things on a jet built in 1964 which was the year the lear
was built for 100k that I saw. Also saw some new ones that were priced
well below a million which would be appealing but I would probably
have to lease or make payments on most of them.

What would be your suggestion for the Insurance hurdle?? If I couldn't
rent one to build time in to secure insurance?

>
>Be careful. Do some self examination and understand your motivation. It can
>be done, but learn how to do it safely and correctly. Do not let your need
>for speed surpass your capabilities.
>
>Thurman Munson, the Yankee catcher, had 516 hours TOTAL flight time, 33
>total hours in Citations, and had owned 4 different airplanes during the 18
>months that he was a pilot. Too much money. Too much airplane. Too much
>speed. Too little experience. Touch and goes in a jet. The last one he
>didn't use his checklist. First forgot to lower his gear, then he forgot to
>lower his flaps. Way behind the power curve, too slow on final with the
>flaps up, they sank into the trees. 516 hours TT 18 months more money
>than experience.
>
>Please be careful.
>
>Jim

Jim thanks for your input it is well received.
>

On 20 Sep 2005 08:47:47 -0700, "Robert M. Gary" >
wrote:

>I"m not sure if you are saying "Lear Jet" because that's the jet that
>comes to mind or if you like the Lear better than other jets. However,
>there are several schools out there that have programs that get you
>some jet time. All ATP is one example. For $43,994.50 you go all the
>way from where you are today to having some jet time. However, if you
>plan to earn back your money flying jets, it could take quite some
>time. You'll likely spend the first 10 years or so of your professional
>life teaching in single engine trainers before you have enough hours to
>get hired flying jets.
>
>-Robert

Not going into it too make money off of it Robert. Just a personal
goal and desire. Thanks for your input

On 20 Sep 2005 08:50:27 -0700, wrote:

>
>Steve wrote:
>> I'm considering taking up flying as a hobby. It's something I've been wanting to do
>> since I was a kid. The ultimate goal is to learn how to fly lear jets or should I say private
>> light jets. What flight training classes would I have to take and how many hrs would I
>> have to perform. I can pretty much fly as many times a week as necessary to get the
>> training my job schedule is highly flexible. I have noticed that most courses run from 5
>> to 7 k. To get a private pilots license. But what would it take to have the licensing to fly
>> a lear. And can those courses be taken right after getting my PPL. I saw where I could
>> get a PPL for 8,000 and get instrument training for another 6,000. Is there another
>> course needed to fly a lear and can all the classes be taken concurrently.
>
>How flexible is that schedule? You could go to an ab-initio school that
>feeds people into the regional airlines in 12-18 months and get all the
>ratings, and if you really want, you could get a job with a regional
>and get line-qualified as a copilot (FO) in another year maybe, and
>quit. They'll probably want you to pay for your training after that,
>but if you've got Learjet kind of money that won't be a problem, and
>the insurance companies will take you real seriously.

I'm not that flexible and that route appears to be cumbersome and
under a corporate thumb I don't do well in those types of situations.
>
>If you don't have quite that much time, you could pay to get a type
>rating at FlightSafety and look for work flying right seat for check
>couriers, that sort of thing, that don't require such a permanent
>commitment, though it's still not going to be a cakewalk. You'll build
>hours and get paid almost as much as you might make as an assistant
>manager at a hot dog stand.

Can I go this route without working for someone else. Maybe doing
charity work for something like the "Angel Flight" I saw mentioned
here??

>
>Also, you might want to consider whether you really need a turbojet
>airplane... A Lancair Columbia will cruise over 200kts which makes
>500-mile trips go plenty fast, and will cost you a hell of a lot less
>in fuel and maintenance, and you can order one new from the factory for
>half of what you'd pay for a clapped-out jet, and you can get insured
>in one even as a VFR student if you're willing to pay out the nose. Of
>course, if you're talking about 1000 mile trips in real weather,
>nothing beats a jet, but even the brand-new very-light jets don't all
>live up to that, especially when you put a couple butts in the seats.
>
>-cwk.

Can I fly one of these planes you mentioned from L.A. to New York in a
fairly resonable amount of time at night or during somewhat unclear
weather.

That sounds like something way bigger than what I would consider
flying.


On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 15:58:26 GMT, "Steve Foley"
> wrote:

>Just for comparison:
>
>I was talking to a friend of mine who is a corporate pilot. I spend $200 to
>fill the tanks in my Cherokee 140. His company spends $7,000 to fill the
>tanks in his Hawker.
>
>"Steve" > wrote in message
. ..
>>
>> I'm considering taking up flying as a hobby. It's something I've been
>wanting to do
>> since I was a kid. The ultimate goal is to learn how to fly lear jets or
>should I say private
>> light jets. What flight training classes would I have to take and how many
>hrs would I
>> have to perform. I can pretty much fly as many times a week as necessary
>to get the
>> training my job schedule is highly flexible. I have noticed that most
>courses run from 5
>> to 7 k. To get a private pilots license. But what would it take to have
>the licensing to fly
>> a lear. And can those courses be taken right after getting my PPL. I saw
>where I could
>> get a PPL for 8,000 and get instrument training for another 6,000. Is
>there another
>> course needed to fly a lear and can all the classes be taken concurrently.
>>
>

On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 22:07:12 GMT, "Casey Wilson" <N2310D @ gmail.com>
wrote:

Casy-

Im extremely fresh at this what is a PP-ASEL


>
>>>
>>>Whose Lear jets are you planning to fly, you're own? Or are you
>>>considering commercial operations for your hobby? You should be aware
>>>they require two flight crew as well as a type rating and recurrent
>>>training. Some light jets only require one pilot.
>>
>> Eventually once all certificates are acquired yes I do plan to fly my
>> own. I'm not really wanting to be involved with working for anyone.
>> Mostly just to visit folks and attend events in other cities and
>> states and the occassional airplane only access fishing trip. Maybe a
>> flight over the backwoods of Alaska stuff like that.
>>
> Of course you didn't mean it, but you did cause me to conjur up the
>apparition of a Lear-60 on floats.
> In all honesty, my thoughts are that you should before anything
>else, just go get your PP-ASEL. You need to start there in case, so go do
>that -- first. Forget all the other stuff until then.
>

All this boils down to how much money you have to spend.

Everyone here focused on Lear, and keeps telling you they are flown by
two pilots. True enough, but the fact is that Cessna makes a single
pilot Citation jet, and quite a few people own those as personal
self-flown airplanes. So assuming that's what you're going for (a
6-person 450-mph jet) here's what you need to do:

Get your private, instrument, multi-instrument, and Citation type
rating in that order. You will probably need to rack up some multi
time before anyone will try to teach you in a Citation. All of this,
including the practice time required, can probably be made to happen
for less than $120K in under 500 hours. If you push it, you can
probably make it all happen in a year or so. If the price tag is out
of reach for you, you can't afford the private jet anyway.

If in the process you buy a transition airplane (most likely a twin -
something like a Cessna 310 that is reasonable for training but has
adequate performance for some utility) then you can start getting
utility from your flying about 4 months or so into the game.

If you actually want to be insured (even for liability only) then the
first year of jet ownership will probably mean having an instructor
pilot in the jet in any case - nobody will write you any other way, if
at all.

Michael

"Steve" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 22:07:12 GMT, "Casey Wilson" <N2310D @ gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Casy-
>
> Im extremely fresh at this what is a PP-ASEL
>

Private Pilot - Single Engine Land

Thanks for the heads up Michael. I am aware of all those classes
except for the Multi-Instrument can you take that class at your local
flight school or do I need to find a different avenue for that.

On 20 Sep 2005 15:45:16 -0700, "Michael"
> wrote:

>All this boils down to how much money you have to spend.
>
>Everyone here focused on Lear, and keeps telling you they are flown by
>two pilots. True enough, but the fact is that Cessna makes a single
>pilot Citation jet, and quite a few people own those as personal
>self-flown airplanes. So assuming that's what you're going for (a
>6-person 450-mph jet) here's what you need to do:
>
>Get your private, instrument, multi-instrument, and Citation type
>rating in that order. You will probably need to rack up some multi
>time before anyone will try to teach you in a Citation. All of this,
>including the practice time required, can probably be made to happen
>for less than $120K in under 500 hours. If you push it, you can
>probably make it all happen in a year or so. If the price tag is out
>of reach for you, you can't afford the private jet anyway.
>
>If in the process you buy a transition airplane (most likely a twin -
>something like a Cessna 310 that is reasonable for training but has
>adequate performance for some utility) then you can start getting
>utility from your flying about 4 months or so into the game.
>
>If you actually want to be insured (even for liability only) then the
>first year of jet ownership will probably mean having an instructor
>pilot in the jet in any case - nobody will write you any other way, if
>at all.
>
>Michael

Thanks Jay

On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 15:47:19 -0700, "Jay Beckman" >
wrote:

>"Steve" > wrote in message
...
>> On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 22:07:12 GMT, "Casey Wilson" <N2310D @ gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Casy-
>>
>> Im extremely fresh at this what is a PP-ASEL
>>
>
>Private Pilot - Single Engine Land
>

"Steve" wrote:

>>Yes. In fact, you could do it all at the same time, but it would most
>>likely
>>be impractical.
>
>
> Thanks for your input Dan. Why would you consider it impratical?

Awfully expensive to learn the basics in a bizjet. Doing s-turns across
a road in a Lear would be fun, I guess. Still, if money is no object, no
doubt you could train ab initio in a Citation or similar. If you
actually do this, it should make for some fascinating usenet posts.

--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

"Dan Luke" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Steve" wrote:
>
>>>Yes. In fact, you could do it all at the same time, but it would most
>>>likely
>>>be impractical.
>>
>>
>> Thanks for your input Dan. Why would you consider it impratical?
>
> Awfully expensive to learn the basics in a bizjet. Doing s-turns across a
> road in a Lear would be fun, I guess.

<SNIP>

Provided you are doing them in Texas over I-10 ...

:O)

Jay B

> Thanks for the heads up Michael. I am aware of all those classes
> except for the Multi-Instrument can you take that class at your local
> flight school or do I need to find a different avenue for that.

If your local flight school has a twin, you can take the
multi-instrument there. Some do, some don't. Note that they may not
call it multi-instrument. When you take a multi ride as an instrument
rated private pilot, you have the option of taking a VFR-only ride (and
getting a VFR-only multi, your instrument privileges restricted to
singles) or a ride with IFR components (an engine failure on
instruments and a single engine approach) that will give you IFR
privileges in the twin. The latter is what you want.

The class you will definitely need to travel to is the one that will
get you a Citation type rating.

Michael

That's a valuable tip. I'll look for flight schools with twins first
and see if I can get a good match with the instructors. If not I'll go
the single engine route first. I think the instructor for that is more
important than the twin right now. Thanks again Michael.

On 20 Sep 2005 16:31:46 -0700, "Michael"
> wrote:

>> Thanks for the heads up Michael. I am aware of all those classes
>> except for the Multi-Instrument can you take that class at your local
>> flight school or do I need to find a different avenue for that.
>
>If your local flight school has a twin, you can take the
>multi-instrument there. Some do, some don't. Note that they may not
>call it multi-instrument. When you take a multi ride as an instrument
>rated private pilot, you have the option of taking a VFR-only ride (and
>getting a VFR-only multi, your instrument privileges restricted to
>singles) or a ride with IFR components (an engine failure on
>instruments and a single engine approach) that will give you IFR
>privileges in the twin. The latter is what you want.
>
>The class you will definitely need to travel to is the one that will
>get you a Citation type rating.
>
>Michael

You can get your Multi without an Instrument Rating. He just wouldn't be
able to fly his jet in the flight levels with out the Instrument Rating. :-)

Jon Kraus
'79 Mooney 201
4443H @ TYQ

Paul kgyy wrote:
> Well, once you get your PPL and IR, you just move on to the
> multi-engine by renting a Piper Seneca and working your way up to the
> LJ, or go directly to the LJ. I hear they are not all that hard to
> fly. I have no idea what the rental cost would be, but fuel alone for
> those babies costs a mint. You'll probably have to rent from a flight
> school, and they charge more than your local FBO who might have a twin
> available for training.
>
> As others have said, just a matter of time and money. I might also add
> aptitude, since some people turn out to have no ability to fly.
>

I'm going to add something that noone else has offered up yet. Go down to
your local flight school, wherever it is, and talk to an instructor, ask
questions.... take notes, you may or may not like what you hear. Think
practical here.

If 3mil is too much to spend for a jet and training, don't bother wiht the
jet. Even if you got one for less then a million, the fixed annual
inspection/maintenance costs are outrageously high, figure in fuel and other
variable operational costs and you can easilly be spending in excess of 2
thousand bux an hour to fly depending on how much you fly the thing.

As far as training... Learn in a single engine piston aircraft, trust me, it
will make you a much safer pilot. Frankly I don't want to fly in the same
piece of sky as a jet with a pilot that has little or no piston experience.
Why do I say that? In the jet you learn how to operate a machine, punch
buttons, occasionally handfly. In the smaller planes you really learn how
to AVIATE, not simply a matter of "driving the airplane" but FLYING the
airplane in an everchanging environment where everyone IS out to get you (or
so you should tell yourself so you keep your head on a swivle to make sure
they miss). Also consider an instrument approach, in a small play you could
easilly have as long as five minutes to execute the inbound portion of the
approach and landing, which means you have five mintues to correct for any
minor deviations in coures and altitude, much easier to learn to fly in
(even then it will feel like you are trying to catch up to the airplane),
cus there WILL be deviaitons in course and altitude, even for a guy with
thousands and thousands of hours of flying. In the jet your inbound course
and landing can happein in less than two minutes, meaning if you "Eff it up
a little" your responses should be more then twice as quick, WITHOUT
overcorrecting, much better to learn this in a small plane, and step it up
to faster and faster planes as you gain profeciency. (Tell me, would you
ever expect success in sacking an NFL quarterback without lots and lots of
practice and intermediate steps?). Figure on around 3-6 months to get your
private pilot and instrument ratings. Once thats out of the way I would
actually suggest you go for a multi-commercial-instrument, its not a route
many people take, but is a very good option, basically you have to learn all
the multi engine manuevers, and execute them to commercial standards, may
have to learn seperate commercial manuevers depending on the particular
aircraft (I know you probably won't have to do a Power Off Precision Landing
in a multi engine plane, but you may need to do a chandel or something
similar if its safe to do so in that particular plane), add on a single
engine instrument approach in there somewhere and you've got your Commercial
Multi Instrument. Regs also require you to have 250 hours (and several
other requirements) to take your commercial checkride, excellent
oppertunities to learn some aviation on your own time without an instructor
holding your hand the entire way, I would hate to see your first solo
instrument approach happen in a Jet. You can easilly get all of this done
in less than a year if you suck it up and do it.

I don't like pilots that are afraid to fly, at the same time I REALLY dont'
like pilots that think they can fly..... Don't let yourself get into these
two catagories, find a nice happy medium of safety minded caution and
confidence in skills, don't be an aviation pussy that is afraid of the
airplane, but at the same time don't be cocky to the point you end up dead,
or worse, end up haveing to live with the fact that you made other people
dead).


Also the advantage of doing the commercial multi route would insure that you
have at least 250 hours by the time you start flying jets (and completing
the appropriate type training course). Consider that you will likely have
to have an instructor or other qualified pilot sitting in the right seat
of the jet to keep the insurance company happy till you get to at LEAST 500
hours total time, and possibly to 1000 hours JET TIME. Having that 250 out
of the way may reduce how long you have to have that seat warmer with out
(and concidentally that seat warmer may like to get paid for his/her time!)

Also consider a multi or single engine turboprop aircraft instead of the
jet, they will likely be cheaper to buy and fly then a jet, and true, you
may not be able to fly coast to coast in a single leg, but you can still do
it a hellova lot faster than driving, AND you can fly into airports a
turbojet/fan may not be able to get in and out of (there are a lot more
runways out there less than 5000 feet long, then there are runways 5000'
long or greater) For this reason my ultimate millionare fun toy would be a
Beech C-90 King Air, reasonably quick, excellent utility, small enough to
fit in most hangers, plus they sound cool.


Damn... i don't post often, but when i do... i get a bit long winded...




"Steve" > wrote in message
. ..
>
>
> I'm considering taking up flying as a hobby. It's something I've been
> wanting to do
> since I was a kid. The ultimate goal is to learn how to fly lear jets or
> should I say private
> light jets. What flight training classes would I have to take and how many
> hrs would I
> have to perform. I can pretty much fly as many times a week as necessary
> to get the
> training my job schedule is highly flexible. I have noticed that most
> courses run from 5
> to 7 k. To get a private pilots license. But what would it take to have
> the licensing to fly
> a lear. And can those courses be taken right after getting my PPL. I saw
> where I could
> get a PPL for 8,000 and get instrument training for another 6,000. Is
> there another
> course needed to fly a lear and can all the classes be taken concurrently.
>
>

On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 23:50:30 GMT, Steve > wrote
in >::

>I'll look for flight schools with twins first
>and see if I can get a good match with the instructors.


Where are you located? Are you in Orange County, CA?

I'm in Los Angeles

On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 00:16:51 GMT, Larry Dighera >
wrote:

>On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 23:50:30 GMT, Steve > wrote
>in >::
>
>>I'll look for flight schools with twins first
>>and see if I can get a good match with the instructors.
>
>
>Where are you located? Are you in Orange County, CA?

On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 17:11:51 -0700, "nooneimportant" <no.spam@me>
wrote:

>
>I'm going to add something that noone else has offered up yet. Go down to
>your local flight school, wherever it is, and talk to an instructor, ask
>questions.... take notes, you may or may not like what you hear. Think
>practical here.
>
>If 3mil is too much to spend for a jet and training, don't bother wiht the
>jet. Even if you got one for less then a million, the fixed annual
>inspection/maintenance costs are outrageously high, figure in fuel and other
>variable operational costs and you can easilly be spending in excess of 2
>thousand bux an hour to fly depending on how much you fly the thing.
>
>As far as training... Learn in a single engine piston aircraft, trust me, it
>will make you a much safer pilot. Frankly I don't want to fly in the same
>piece of sky as a jet with a pilot that has little or no piston experience.
>Why do I say that? In the jet you learn how to operate a machine, punch
>buttons, occasionally handfly. In the smaller planes you really learn how
>to AVIATE, not simply a matter of "driving the airplane" but FLYING the
>airplane in an everchanging environment where everyone IS out to get you (or
>so you should tell yourself so you keep your head on a swivle to make sure
>they miss). Also consider an instrument approach, in a small play you could
>easilly have as long as five minutes to execute the inbound portion of the
>approach and landing, which means you have five mintues to correct for any
>minor deviations in coures and altitude, much easier to learn to fly in
>(even then it will feel like you are trying to catch up to the airplane),
>cus there WILL be deviaitons in course and altitude, even for a guy with
>thousands and thousands of hours of flying. In the jet your inbound course
>and landing can happein in less than two minutes, meaning if you "Eff it up
>a little" your responses should be more then twice as quick, WITHOUT
>overcorrecting, much better to learn this in a small plane, and step it up
>to faster and faster planes as you gain profeciency. (Tell me, would you
>ever expect success in sacking an NFL quarterback without lots and lots of
>practice and intermediate steps?). Figure on around 3-6 months to get your
>private pilot and instrument ratings. Once thats out of the way I would
>actually suggest you go for a multi-commercial-instrument, its not a route
>many people take, but is a very good option, basically you have to learn all
>the multi engine manuevers, and execute them to commercial standards, may
>have to learn seperate commercial manuevers depending on the particular
>aircraft (I know you probably won't have to do a Power Off Precision Landing
>in a multi engine plane, but you may need to do a chandel or something
>similar if its safe to do so in that particular plane), add on a single
>engine instrument approach in there somewhere and you've got your Commercial
>Multi Instrument. Regs also require you to have 250 hours (and several
>other requirements) to take your commercial checkride, excellent
>oppertunities to learn some aviation on your own time without an instructor
>holding your hand the entire way, I would hate to see your first solo
>instrument approach happen in a Jet. You can easilly get all of this done
>in less than a year if you suck it up and do it.
>
>I don't like pilots that are afraid to fly, at the same time I REALLY dont'
>like pilots that think they can fly..... Don't let yourself get into these
>two catagories, find a nice happy medium of safety minded caution and
>confidence in skills, don't be an aviation pussy that is afraid of the
>airplane, but at the same time don't be cocky to the point you end up dead,
>or worse, end up haveing to live with the fact that you made other people
>dead).
>
>
>Also the advantage of doing the commercial multi route would insure that you
>have at least 250 hours by the time you start flying jets (and completing
>the appropriate type training course). Consider that you will likely have
>to have an instructor or other qualified pilot sitting in the right seat
>of the jet to keep the insurance company happy till you get to at LEAST 500
>hours total time, and possibly to 1000 hours JET TIME. Having that 250 out
>of the way may reduce how long you have to have that seat warmer with out
>(and concidentally that seat warmer may like to get paid for his/her time!)
>
>Also consider a multi or single engine turboprop aircraft instead of the
>jet, they will likely be cheaper to buy and fly then a jet, and true, you
>may not be able to fly coast to coast in a single leg, but you can still do
>it a hellova lot faster than driving, AND you can fly into airports a
>turbojet/fan may not be able to get in and out of (there are a lot more
>runways out there less than 5000 feet long, then there are runways 5000'
>long or greater) For this reason my ultimate millionare fun toy would be a
>Beech C-90 King Air, reasonably quick, excellent utility, small enough to
>fit in most hangers, plus they sound cool.
>
>
>Damn... i don't post often, but when i do... i get a bit long winded...

I for one thought it was a very informative post I plan on being
around a bit. So feel free to correct my thinking at will. BTW that
Beech C-90 King Air is a cool looking airplane.






>
>
>
>
>"Steve" > wrote in message
. ..
>>
>>
>> I'm considering taking up flying as a hobby. It's something I've been
>> wanting to do
>> since I was a kid. The ultimate goal is to learn how to fly lear jets or
>> should I say private
>> light jets. What flight training classes would I have to take and how many
>> hrs would I
>> have to perform. I can pretty much fly as many times a week as necessary
>> to get the
>> training my job schedule is highly flexible. I have noticed that most
>> courses run from 5
>> to 7 k. To get a private pilots license. But what would it take to have
>> the licensing to fly
>> a lear. And can those courses be taken right after getting my PPL. I saw
>> where I could
>> get a PPL for 8,000 and get instrument training for another 6,000. Is
>> there another
>> course needed to fly a lear and can all the classes be taken concurrently.
>>
>>
>
>

Steve wrote:
>
> Point taken, But when you talk about specialized type rating schools
> how do you go about finding out where they are and what their
> requirements are I couldn't find them that's why i'm posting here. The
> only thing I saw was for the buying a new lear or cessna citation.
> However 3 million for a plane is not quite in the budget. Or can you
> take these classes from these companies without actually flying home
> in a new plane.

Try http://www.landings.com and check out flight schools.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

I caught that two just didnt want to be annoying by asking what the A
was for

On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 20:59:28 -0400, "Morgans"
> wrote:

>
>> >Private Pilot - Single Engine Land
>
>It is a nit, but you left out the "airplane"
>
>Private Pilot - Airplane Single Engine Land

Thanks


On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 00:54:21 GMT, George Patterson
> wrote:

>



Steve wrote:
>>
>> Point taken, But when you talk about specialized type rating schools
>> how do you go about finding out where they are and what their
>> requirements are I couldn't find them that's why i'm posting here. The
>> only thing I saw was for the buying a new lear or cessna citation.
>> However 3 million for a plane is not quite in the budget. Or can you
>> take these classes from these companies without actually flying home
>> in a new plane.
>
>Try http://www.landings.com and check out flight schools.
>
>George Patterson
> Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
> use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

> >Private Pilot - Single Engine Land

It is a nit, but you left out the "airplane"

Private Pilot - Airplane Single Engine Land
--
Jim in NC

That's the only data point I have. The reason I point it out is to
demonstrate that most 'hobby' flyers fly piston. John Travolta and Jimmy
Buffet are the only names I know who fly jets as their personal aircraft.
I'm sure there are others, but they're all out of my price range.

"Steve" > wrote in message
...
> That sounds like something way bigger than what I would consider
> flying.
>
>
> On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 15:58:26 GMT, "Steve Foley"
> > wrote:
>
> >Just for comparison:
> >
> >I was talking to a friend of mine who is a corporate pilot. I spend $200
to
> >fill the tanks in my Cherokee 140. His company spends $7,000 to fill the
> >tanks in his Hawker.

Steve wrote:
> On 20 Sep 2005 08:50:27 -0700, wrote:
> >
> >How flexible is that schedule? You could go to an ab-initio school that
> >feeds people into the regional airlines in 12-18 months and get all the
>
> I'm not that flexible and that route appears to be cumbersome and
> under a corporate thumb I don't do well in those types of situations.

Fair enough, but keep in mind that in that case a large portion of the
corporate thumb exists to keep cocky/inexperienced pilots from bending
airplanes and scaring passengers, or worse.

> >
> >If you don't have quite that much time, you could pay to get a type
> >rating at FlightSafety and look for work flying right seat for check
>
> Can I go this route without working for someone else. Maybe doing
> charity work for something like the "Angel Flight" I saw mentioned
> here??

Perhaps, but what you're looking to get is loggable turbojet time, and
the guys loaning their jets to Angel Flight are also supplying the
crews. It's the third-tier charter companies, freight dogs, etc. who
might have need of a cheap and willing SIC and if you hang around the
field and get to know the right people you might find yourself getting
some time here and there.

> >
> >Also, you might want to consider whether you really need a turbojet
> >airplane... A Lancair Columbia will cruise over 200kts which makes
>
> Can I fly one of these planes you mentioned from L.A. to New York in a
> fairly resonable amount of time at night or during somewhat unclear
> weather.

If JFK-LAX is your typical flight, I'd take myself over to NetJets and
buy a fractional share and let somebody else do the driving. That trip
is at least 8 hours flying time (and 1, more likely 2 fuel stops) even
in a Mustang or CitationJet, which is a 12-14 hour day before you hit
the ground in LA. I suspect most guys either take a co-pilot or spread
the flying out over two days. You need to go quite a ways up the food
chain to something like a Hawker 800XP before you can make that trip
non-stop, and until you can do that, American Airlines will get you
there faster even adding in the time to take your shoes off, yadda
yadda.

Where an owner-flown aircraft really shines is in the 300-1500nm trips
where you're going direct and non-stop between two places the airlines
don't go direct. Let's say you're spending the weekend at a beach house
in Maine up near Bangor, and on Monday you want to meet with a client
in Syracuse. If you're lucky you'll leave your house at 6am and be
there by noon on the airlines, who will fly you to Newark or Philly
first. There's not too many flights either so if there's any problems
or delays you may not get there until sometime closer to dinner.

I, on the other hand, arrive at the airport at 7, have some coffee,
preflight, maybe file a flight plan, take off around 8, and arrive a
little after 11 in my fire-breathing Cessna 172 (105 knots on a good
day). In a Cirrus or Lancair you'll get there by 10. The faster the
airplane, the bigger the ranges can get. What is your typical mission?
That will dictate the right plane for you.

Now, your question mentioned weather. Good question. I would not
consider a Columbia with anti-ice to be an all-weather airplane, but
it's pretty good. A turbine engine (something like a Meridian) will buy
you more leeway to climb up and above the weather faster. A very light
jet still isn't all-weather but the range of what it can't handle is
relatively limited. Really bad thunderstorms will ground the airlines
too, but they'll push right through ice that would ruin your day fast.

-cwk.

"Steve" > wrote

> I for one thought it was a very informative post I plan on being
> around a bit. So feel free to correct my thinking at will. BTW that
> Beech C-90 King Air is a cool looking airplane.

Good points. By the way, the C-90 would be a great choice to work your way
into, get a lot of utility, and build some serious hours that will be needed
to get into the turbojets. The operating costs are much lower, and that
will be important for building time.

Lots of bang for the buck with King Airs. Just ask the NASCAR crowd. Lots
of racing teams use them for their dependable fast transportation, and many
drivers fly their plane, themselves. Good short field performance, good
load carrying, good bad weather capabilities. I think they call it (all of
the flying racing teams as a whole) the redneck airforce, or something like
that! <g>
--
Jim in NC

In article >,
"Morgans" > wrote:

> "Steve" > wrote
>
> > I for one thought it was a very informative post I plan on being
> > around a bit. So feel free to correct my thinking at will. BTW that
> > Beech C-90 King Air is a cool looking airplane.
>
> Good points. By the way, the C-90 would be a great choice to work your way
> into, get a lot of utility, and build some serious hours that will be needed
> to get into the turbojets. The operating costs are much lower, and that
> will be important for building time.
>
> Lots of bang for the buck with King Airs. Just ask the NASCAR crowd. Lots
> of racing teams use them for their dependable fast transportation, and many
> drivers fly their plane, themselves. Good short field performance, good
> load carrying, good bad weather capabilities. I think they call it (all of
> the flying racing teams as a whole) the redneck airforce, or something like
> that! <g>

What I don't like about King Air's is the high approach speed and high
safe single engine operating speed.

"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Steve" > wrote
>
>> I for one thought it was a very informative post I plan on being
>> around a bit. So feel free to correct my thinking at will. BTW that
>> Beech C-90 King Air is a cool looking airplane.
>
> Good points. By the way, the C-90 would be a great choice to work your
> way
> into, get a lot of utility, and build some serious hours that will be
> needed
> to get into the turbojets. The operating costs are much lower, and that
> will be important for building time.
>
> Lots of bang for the buck with King Airs. Just ask the NASCAR crowd.
> Lots
> of racing teams use them for their dependable fast transportation, and
> many
> drivers fly their plane, themselves. Good short field performance, good
> load carrying, good bad weather capabilities. I think they call it (all of
> the flying racing teams as a whole) the redneck airforce, or something
> like
> that! <g>
> --
> Jim in NC

Interesting that you bring up the short field ability of the C-90.

I was cleaning up after a XC flight today (See: Hello Dahli) when a C-90B
landed at our flyin-in community airstrip which is 3913 X 60'.

I couldn't see which turnoff he actually made, but based on how quickly he
was back at the parking area after I heard the wheels touch, he had to have
gotten it stopped in at least two thirds (if not half) the length of the
runway.

Jay B

"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
>
>> >Private Pilot - Single Engine Land
>
> It is a nit, but you left out the "airplane"
>
> Private Pilot - Airplane Single Engine Land
> --
> Jim in NC

It's a legitimate pick o' the nit...

Hands faster than brain sometimes.

<sheepish g>

Jay B

On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 00:23:59 GMT, Steve > wrote
in >::

>I'm in Los Angeles

There are several airports located in Los Angeles. I was hoping I
might be able to recommend a particular Fixed Base Operator's flight
school to you, but I'm not sure which airports are nearest your
location, but I would suggest a larger, towered airport with the
exception of LAX.

At any rate, drop in to your nearest airport, and let the proprietor
know you are interested in flight training. Ask for a demo ride with
the Chief Pilot, that way you'll probably have one of the better
instructors with some experience, and one who is less likely to leave
for a job with the airlines midway through your instruction.

The instructor will show you how to inspect the aircraft before
flight, takeoff, let you take the controls, and demonstrate what's
involved in landing. You'll get a taste of what light aircraft are
like, and a chance to interview your potential instructor. If you're
not happy with the instructor, aircraft, or anything else, get a demo
flight at another FBO. The cost will be minimal, and you'll have a
much better idea of what you'll be in for.

As far as I know I'm within 15 no more than 30 minutes to the
following that are not LAX. They are Santa Monica, Torrance,
Hawthorne, and Compton. From my research on the web Compton is the
only one that offesr Multi-engine at their flight school. Compton is
not neccessarily a place I would want to spend a lot of time so I'm
going to go by Santa Monica tommorrow and make a trip to Torrance
later in the week.




On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 05:29:42 GMT, Larry Dighera >
wrote:

>On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 00:23:59 GMT, Steve > wrote
>in >::
>
>>I'm in Los Angeles
>
>There are several airports located in Los Angeles. I was hoping I
>might be able to recommend a particular Fixed Base Operator's flight
>school to you, but I'm not sure which airports are nearest your
>location, but I would suggest a larger, towered airport with the
>exception of LAX.
>
>At any rate, drop in to your nearest airport, and let the proprietor
>know you are interested in flight training. Ask for a demo ride with
>the Chief Pilot, that way you'll probably have one of the better
>instructors with some experience, and one who is less likely to leave
>for a job with the airlines midway through your instruction.
>
>The instructor will show you how to inspect the aircraft before
>flight, takeoff, let you take the controls, and demonstrate what's
>involved in landing. You'll get a taste of what light aircraft are
>like, and a chance to interview your potential instructor. If you're
>not happy with the instructor, aircraft, or anything else, get a demo
>flight at another FBO. The cost will be minimal, and you'll have a
>much better idea of what you'll be in for.

On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 05:39:34 GMT, Steve > wrote
in >::

>I'm going to go by Santa Monica tommorrow and make a trip to Torrance
>later in the week.

Those are good choices. You might also consider Long Beach:
http://www.atpflightschool.com/
http://www.californiaflightcenter.com/

You'll find a list of flight schools at Santa Monica here:
http://santa-monica.org/airport/n_flight_s.aspx

Here's a list of flight schools in California:
http://tinyurl.com/cwle7

On 2005-09-21, Steve Foley > wrote:
> That's the only data point I have. The reason I point it out is to
> demonstrate that most 'hobby' flyers fly piston. John Travolta and Jimmy
> Buffet are the only names I know who fly jets as their personal aircraft.
> I'm sure there are others, but they're all out of my price range.

We had a few people who would fly into Houston Gulf on occasion who
owned and flew their own jets - usually the single pilot Cessna
Citations.

They were of course very very wealthy.

Privately owned turboprops weren't too uncommon - we had a Jetprop DLX
conversion based there, and we'd occasionally get owner-flown turboprop
twins of various types show up.

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

("Steve" wrote)
[snips]
>>I'm going to add something that noone else has offered up yet....

>>Damn... i don't post often, but when i do... i get a bit long winded...

> I for one thought it was a very informative post I plan on being
> around a bit. So feel free to correct my thinking at will.


I'm seeing a green light from the tower. <g>

"My Keyboard!"
"My Keyboard!"

First lesson: Let's work on trimming those posts :-)

Thanks.

Also, not wanting to lose you here at r.a.p, but have you popped in over at
rec.aviation.student yet?

Also also, hold out for the new HondaJet. It was way cool at OSH this year.

[Flying lessons - buying your own jet]
* BUY a Cessna 172/Piper Warrior
* Keep it in your own hanger, or rent space.
* Do this before Oct 1st.
There are people here, and at rec.aviation.owning, who will help you out
with much (free) advise on buying a plane.

* Go through about 4 instructors (in *your* plane) men and women - you'll
eventually find a couple CFI's you like -- knock it out in 40-60 hrs.

* Fly and hour per day 4-5-6 days per week.
* Take some glider training for fun.

* Take some fellow 172 pilots up for rides - they don't need to be a CFI.
They will be PIC (Pilot in Command) so make it clear before you go up what's
what ...CRM (Crew Recourse Management) ...just like the airlines crews.

*Get your PPL and your Instrument by Christmas.
Now you'll have a much better idea what you want to do next ...plus you'll
be a pilot!!

Almost forgot - get your medical out of the way first. If you've got "known"
issues here, you will still be able to fly under the new Sport Pilot Rule -
just not jets.


Montblack

Montblack wrote:
>
> Also also, hold out for the new HondaJet. It was way cool at OSH this year.

Honda hasn't even decided to put it into production yet. If they do, I agree --
it's way cool. But maybe Steve wants to pick up something else in the meantime.

> Almost forgot - get your medical out of the way first. If you've got
> "known" issues here, you will still be able to fly under the new Sport
> Pilot Rule - just not jets.

I agree that the medical should be taken ASAP, but Steve will not be able to fly
Sport Pilot if his application for a medical is rejected.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

Thanks those are pretty good links. I forgot about Long Beach the
California Flight Center just from looking at their website warrants a
closer look. Thanks for the info Larry

On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 06:20:09 GMT, Larry Dighera >
wrote:

>On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 05:39:34 GMT, Steve > wrote
>in >::
>
>>I'm going to go by Santa Monica tommorrow and make a trip to Torrance
>>later in the week.
>
>Those are good choices. You might also consider Long Beach:
>http://www.atpflightschool.com/
>http://www.californiaflightcenter.com/
>
>You'll find a list of flight schools at Santa Monica here:
>http://santa-monica.org/airport/n_flight_s.aspx
>
>Here's a list of flight schools in California:
>http://tinyurl.com/cwle7

On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 13:09:07 -0500, "Montblack"
> wrote:

>("Steve" wrote)
>[snips]
>>>I'm going to add something that noone else has offered up yet....
>
>>>Damn... i don't post often, but when i do... i get a bit long winded...
>
>> I for one thought it was a very informative post I plan on being
>> around a bit. So feel free to correct my thinking at will.
>
>
>I'm seeing a green light from the tower. <g>
>
>"My Keyboard!"
>"My Keyboard!"
>
>First lesson: Let's work on trimming those posts :-)
>
>Thanks.
>
>Also, not wanting to lose you here at r.a.p, but have you popped in over at
>rec.aviation.student yet?

Yes, but I wanted to pick the experienced mind first.

>
>Also also, hold out for the new HondaJet. It was way cool at OSH this year.
>
>[Flying lessons - buying your own jet]
>* BUY a Cessna 172/Piper Warrior
>* Keep it in your own hanger, or rent space.
>* Do this before Oct 1st.

Why do I need to do this before Oct 1

>There are people here, and at rec.aviation.owning, who will help you out
>with much (free) advise on buying a plane.
>
>* Go through about 4 instructors (in *your* plane) men and women - you'll
>eventually find a couple CFI's you like -- knock it out in 40-60 hrs.
>
>* Fly and hour per day 4-5-6 days per week.
>* Take some glider training for fun.

For some reason flying without an engine on purpose disturbs me.
>
>* Take some fellow 172 pilots up for rides - they don't need to be a CFI.
>They will be PIC (Pilot in Command) so make it clear before you go up what's
>what ...CRM (Crew Recourse Management) ...just like the airlines crews.
>
>*Get your PPL and your Instrument by Christmas.
>Now you'll have a much better idea what you want to do next ...plus you'll
>be a pilot!!
>
>Almost forgot - get your medical out of the way first. If you've got "known"
>issues here, you will still be able to fly under the new Sport Pilot Rule -
>just not jets.
>
>
>Montblack

On 20 Sep 2005 19:08:13 -0700, wrote:

>Steve wrote:
>> On 20 Sep 2005 08:50:27 -0700, wrote:
>> >
>> >How flexible is that schedule? You could go to an ab-initio school that
>> >feeds people into the regional airlines in 12-18 months and get all the
>>
>> I'm not that flexible and that route appears to be cumbersome and
>> under a corporate thumb I don't do well in those types of situations.
>
>Fair enough, but keep in mind that in that case a large portion of the
>corporate thumb exists to keep cocky/inexperienced pilots from bending
>airplanes and scaring passengers, or worse.
>
>> >
>> >If you don't have quite that much time, you could pay to get a type
>> >rating at FlightSafety and look for work flying right seat for check
>>
>> Can I go this route without working for someone else. Maybe doing
>> charity work for something like the "Angel Flight" I saw mentioned
>> here??
>
>Perhaps, but what you're looking to get is loggable turbojet time, and
>the guys loaning their jets to Angel Flight are also supplying the
>crews. It's the third-tier charter companies, freight dogs, etc. who
>might have need of a cheap and willing SIC and if you hang around the
>field and get to know the right people you might find yourself getting
>some time here and there.

Let me see if I'm clear. What your saying is that if I fly SIC which
I'm gonna assume is second in charge. That I will pick up hours as a
pilot although I'm not actually flying the plane if I'm sitting in the
right seat. That's curious.


>
>> >
>> >Also, you might want to consider whether you really need a turbojet
>> >airplane... A Lancair Columbia will cruise over 200kts which makes
>>
>> Can I fly one of these planes you mentioned from L.A. to New York in a
>> fairly resonable amount of time at night or during somewhat unclear
>> weather.
>
>If JFK-LAX is your typical flight, I'd take myself over to NetJets and
>buy a fractional share and let somebody else do the driving. That trip
>is at least 8 hours flying time (and 1, more likely 2 fuel stops) even
>in a Mustang or CitationJet, which is a 12-14 hour day before you hit
>the ground in LA. I suspect most guys either take a co-pilot or spread
>the flying out over two days. You need to go quite a ways up the food
>chain to something like a Hawker 800XP before you can make that trip
>non-stop, and until you can do that, American Airlines will get you
>there faster even adding in the time to take your shoes off, yadda
>yadda.
>
>Where an owner-flown aircraft really shines is in the 300-1500nm trips
>where you're going direct and non-stop between two places the airlines
>don't go direct. Let's say you're spending the weekend at a beach house
>in Maine up near Bangor, and on Monday you want to meet with a client
>in Syracuse. If you're lucky you'll leave your house at 6am and be
>there by noon on the airlines, who will fly you to Newark or Philly
>first. There's not too many flights either so if there's any problems
>or delays you may not get there until sometime closer to dinner.
>
>I, on the other hand, arrive at the airport at 7, have some coffee,
>preflight, maybe file a flight plan, take off around 8, and arrive a
>little after 11 in my fire-breathing Cessna 172 (105 knots on a good
>day). In a Cirrus or Lancair you'll get there by 10. The faster the
>airplane, the bigger the ranges can get. What is your typical mission?
>That will dictate the right plane for you.
>
>Now, your question mentioned weather. Good question. I would not
>consider a Columbia with anti-ice to be an all-weather airplane, but
>it's pretty good. A turbine engine (something like a Meridian) will buy
>you more leeway to climb up and above the weather faster. A very light
>jet still isn't all-weather but the range of what it can't handle is
>relatively limited. Really bad thunderstorms will ground the airlines
>too, but they'll push right through ice that would ruin your day fast.
>
>-cwk.

Steve wrote:
>
> For some reason flying without an engine on purpose disturbs me.

I prefer that to flying without an engine accidentally.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

("Steve" wrote)
[snips]
> Why do I need to do this before Oct 1


So you can be a pilot by Christmas, silly.

Actually, I (later) re-found this back up the thread: "Not really in a
hurry."

When I typed my response I had "How quickly can I..." in the back of my
mind. We've seen a fair number of those questions over the years. My oops.

There is a fresh thread (Cart before the horse....) over in
rec.aviation.student from a person who just bought a Cessna 172 and is now
looking to take lessons.


> For some reason flying without an engine on purpose disturbs me.

Many report glider lessons made them a better pilot.


Montblack

Steve wrote:
<snip>
> For some reason flying without an engine on purpose disturbs me.

Think of it this way: in a glider, most of the stuff that causes
emergencies has been left on the ground.

Tim Ward

On 21 Sep 2005 16:37:03 -0700, wrote in
om>::

>Think of it this way: in a glider, most of the stuff that causes
>emergencies has been left on the ground.

One could say the same thing of Unmanned Aerial Vehicles. :-)

"Larry Dighera" > wrote in message
...
>>Think of it this way: in a glider, most of the stuff that causes
>>emergencies has been left on the ground.
>
> One could say the same thing of Unmanned Aerial Vehicles. :-)

True, but in the case of UAV, the "stuff" which you'd be referring to is
still "in the loop"...it just has less incentive to avoid causing an
emergency.

On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 17:31:05 -0700, "Peter Duniho"
> wrote in
>::

>"Larry Dighera" > wrote in message
...
>>>Think of it this way: in a glider, most of the stuff that causes
>>>emergencies has been left on the ground.
>>
>> One could say the same thing of Unmanned Aerial Vehicles. :-)
>
>True, but in the case of UAV, the "stuff" which you'd be referring to is
>still "in the loop"...it just has less incentive to avoid causing an
>emergency.

In either the case of the glider or the UAV, statistically the flight
is more likely to have an emergency, than when the emergency causing
"stuff' is aboard.

"LAUGH" Ok OK you guys I get the point about gliders I had never
thought of it that way.


On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 00:51:06 GMT, Larry Dighera >
wrote:

>On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 17:31:05 -0700, "Peter Duniho"
> wrote in
>::
>
>>"Larry Dighera" > wrote in message
...
>>>>Think of it this way: in a glider, most of the stuff that causes
>>>>emergencies has been left on the ground.
>>>
>>> One could say the same thing of Unmanned Aerial Vehicles. :-)
>>
>>True, but in the case of UAV, the "stuff" which you'd be referring to is
>>still "in the loop"...it just has less incentive to avoid causing an
>>emergency.
>
>In either the case of the glider or the UAV, statistically the flight
>is more likely to have an emergency, than when the emergency causing
>"stuff' is aboard.

"john smith" > wrote

> What I don't like about King Air's is the high approach speed and high
> safe single engine operating speed.

Compared to a Lear? Hummm.

What would the comparison be, between the two of these?
--
Jim in NC

"George Patterson" > wrote

> I agree that the medical should be taken ASAP, but Steve will not be able
to fly
> Sport Pilot if his application for a medical is rejected.

Right.

I say that step one should be to join AOPA, and in the process learn about
what kind of issues would be a stopper as far as getting a medical is
concerned. Plus, he will need a 1st class medical, to go all of the way to
jets, right?
--
Jim in NC

The reason to fly gliders is

1. It makes you a better stick-and-rudder pilot
2. It takes most of the weirdness out of forced landings -- by the time you
solo a glider you've made a couple of dozen "forced" landings.

Some of the best airlines -- old Swissair and Lufthansa -- preferred to hire
pilots who had gotten their early training in gliders. They had data
suggesting these guys made better decisions in engine-loss emergencies.

Seth
Comanche N8100R


"Montblack" > wrote in message
...
> ("Steve" wrote)
> [snips]
>> Why do I need to do this before Oct 1
>
>
> So you can be a pilot by Christmas, silly.
>
> Actually, I (later) re-found this back up the thread: "Not really in a
> hurry."
>
> When I typed my response I had "How quickly can I..." in the back of my
> mind. We've seen a fair number of those questions over the years. My oops.
>
> There is a fresh thread (Cart before the horse....) over in
> rec.aviation.student from a person who just bought a Cessna 172 and is now
> looking to take lessons.
>
>
>> For some reason flying without an engine on purpose disturbs me.
>
> Many report glider lessons made them a better pilot.
>
>
> Montblack

wrote:
> Steve wrote:
> <snip>
>
>>For some reason flying without an engine on purpose disturbs me.
>
>
> Think of it this way: in a glider, most of the stuff that causes
> emergencies has been left on the ground.

Actually, that isn't true. Around 80% of the problems are caused by the
pilot. Now if you are talking UAVS... :-)


Matt

Larry Dighera wrote:

> Actually, flying is a bit more than a hobby
....
> flying is a life and death matter after all.

As are many hobbies ... not to mention driving a car.

Stefan

> The reason to fly gliders is
>
> 1. It makes you a better stick-and-rudder pilot
> 2. It takes most of the weirdness out of forced landings -- by the time
> you solo a glider you've made a couple of dozen "forced" landings.

You forgot:

3. It's really fun!

:-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

("Stefan"wrote)
>> ...flying is a life and death matter after all.

> As are many hobbies ... not to mention driving a car.


And if your name is Nelson Rockefeller so is, er, ...um ....(see link)

http://www.ishipress.com/marshak.htm
She was at his side when he died - sort of.


Montblack

Morgans wrote:

> I say that step one should be to join AOPA, and in the process learn about
> what kind of issues would be a stopper as far as getting a medical is
> concerned. Plus, he will need a 1st class medical, to go all of the way to
> jets, right?

When I applied to AOPA, they had a policy that you had to have soloed before
joining. They allowed certain exceptions to that rule at the time, and they may
not have the rule anymore, but, on the other hand, it's possible that Steve
cannot join yet.

I just reviewed part 61, and I think all he'd need is a 3rd class. The classes
are basically based on the type of flying you do, not the aircraft you fly. Yes,
if Steve wanted a job as an ATP, he'd need a 1st class; otherwise, no.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

"George Patterson" > wrote
>
> When I applied to AOPA, they had a policy that you had to have soloed
before
> joining. They allowed certain exceptions to that rule at the time, and
they may
> not have the rule anymore, but, on the other hand, it's possible that
Steve
> cannot join yet.

No problem with AOPA, now. Anyone can join. (EVEN ME) <g>
--
Jim in NC

Ok so you guys consider joining AOPA a must do. I was considering that
but I didn't know if it was an organization worth it's salt. Although
I did like the fact they offered a discount ticket for your
introduction flight.



On Fri, 23 Sep 2005 00:48:28 -0400, "Morgans"
> wrote:

>
>"George Patterson" > wrote
>>
>> When I applied to AOPA, they had a policy that you had to have soloed
>before
>> joining. They allowed certain exceptions to that rule at the time, and
>they may
>> not have the rule anymore, but, on the other hand, it's possible that
>Steve
>> cannot join yet.
>
>No problem with AOPA, now. Anyone can join. (EVEN ME) <g>

Steve wrote:

> Ok so you guys consider joining AOPA a must do.

Definitely.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

"Steve" > wrote in message
...
> Ok so you guys consider joining AOPA a must do. I was considering that
> but I didn't know if it was an organization worth it's salt. Although
> I did like the fact they offered a discount ticket for your
> introduction flight.

Some people will disagree, but IMHO AOPA is worth the dues. The magazine
alone is worth the dues, and membership gets you a lot more. As a member, I
have asked for and received good advice on a variety of topics, from medical
issues, to international flights, to aircraft purchasing, and more.

They are also the primary lobbying organization for general aviation. It
could be argued that they aren't very effective in all areas, but they do
accomplish some things, and frankly it's not like there's any other group
out there doing more than AOPA. I certainly feel like I get at least $40
worth of lobbying each year. :)

As far as the discount for the first lesson goes though, that should be
available whether or not you join. Most flight schools have a discounted
introductory flight, and you can go to www.beapilot.com to find discounted
intro flights near you. So, while I'd agree that AOPA is worth joining for
any pilot, or for pilots-to-be, the discounted first flight isn't something
that makes them unique, nor is it really much of a membership benefit.

Pete

> Ok so you guys consider joining AOPA a must do.

Yes.

They're far from perfect, but they're the best we've got.

And the magazine is outstanding.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 13:17:30 +0200, Stefan >
wrote in >::

>Larry Dighera wrote:
>
>> Actually, flying is a bit more than a hobby
>...
>> flying is a life and death matter after all.
>
>As are many hobbies ... not to mention driving a car.
>


I wouldn't characterize driving a car as a hobby, unless perhaps it's
on a race track.

There are those hobbies, such as rock climbing, SCUBA diving, even
sailing, that are potentially life and death matters, but they don't
demand the public to extend their trust for their participation as
does aviation.

That is why I feel it is important for airmen to act responsibly and
prudent in the air and in public.

Montblack wrote:

> [Flying lessons - buying your own jet]

[snip]

> * Fly and hour per day 4-5-6 days per week.
> * Take some glider training for fun.

Get some tailwheel time as well. In fact, consider doing it sooner
rather than later.

Chris
(Who promptly after cruising through the CFI ride got his ass kicked by
a Luscombe while his 26,000 hour mentor sat in the right seat laughing
his ass off)

Steve wrote:
> I'm considering taking up flying as a hobby. It's something I've been wanting to do
> since I was a kid. The ultimate goal is to learn how to fly lear jets or should I say private
> light jets. What flight training classes would I have to take and how many hrs would I
> have to perform. I can pretty much fly as many times a week as necessary to get the
> training my job schedule is highly flexible. I have noticed that most courses run from 5
> to 7 k. To get a private pilots license. But what would it take to have the licensing to fly
> a lear. And can those courses be taken right after getting my PPL. I saw where I could
> get a PPL for 8,000 and get instrument training for another 6,000. Is there another
> course needed to fly a lear and can all the classes be taken concurrently.

You do not fly jets as a hobby unless you have almost unlimited wealth.
Nevertheless, there are some people who do fly jets as a hobby. The
majority of them fly decommissioned military aircraft, but there are
some Lear pilots and others. You will spend a minimum of $75,000
getting all the certificates and ratings, including a type rating for a
Lear, but that is just the beginning of it. You will have to build up
the hours (over a period of years, probably) to be acceptable to an
insurer. After that, figure a good $1300 per hour for operating cost of
the Lear. You will also have to pay another pilot to fly with you, as
most Lears are not certified for single pilot operation. Even if you
find one that is, your insurer will probably make you fly with another
pilot anyway.

It is not that jets are difficult to fly -- the typical military
throttle jock does not have very much flying experience, especially at
the beginning -- but they require considerable support and
infrastructure. Their high speeds require more planning and an ability
to think far ahead of the airplane. The military guy may not have flown
a lot, but he does make a full time job of studying how to fly his
airplane.

Heck, if I could just guarantee that I had the fuel and insurance
concessions, I could probably give jets away for free and still make
money. Maybe an exaggeration, but not that much of one.

Just remember, it is not the type of airplane that you fly that makes
you a good pilot. There are bad pilots flying all kinds of good
airplanes. It is training and experience that make you a good pilot.

Here is a picture of a bad pilot who was flying what appeared to be a
perfectly good plane.

http://www.seeitornot.faketrix.com/crash-pics-7.htm

Skylune wrote:
> Here is a picture of a bad pilot who was flying what appeared to be a
> perfectly good plane.
>
> http://www.seeitornot.faketrix.com/crash-pics-7.htm

I remember that picture. IIRC, he got caught in wake turbulence on
take-off. Just very unlucky. The plane was fine after they used a
crane to get it (and him) off the lines a few hours later.

Kev

"Skylune" > wrote in message
lkaboutaviation.com...
> Here is a picture of a bad pilot who was flying what appeared to be a
> perfectly good plane.
>
> http://www.seeitornot.faketrix.com/crash-pics-7.htm
>

It's kind of hard to put a lot of faith in a website called faketrix